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Data-Logging Gas Waves in an Engine at 8,000 RPM

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Data-Logging Gas Waves in an Engine at 8,000 RPM

Postby schmidtmotorworks » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:40 am

Dear Pico,

I am collecting the pieces required to measure gas pressure in the ducts of an engine running at 8,000 RPM.

I am hoping that a Picoscope of some kind can complete the hardware collection of my system.

I would like to measure at each degree of crankshaft rotation if possible.
(8,000(RPM)/60 seconds per minute) * 360 (degrees per revolution)
= 48000 samples per second.

I need to trigger the start of a cycle each camshaft revolution. I hope that I can use a pick-up or an encoder for that.

I have 3 sensors to collect data from (they each have amplifiers).

1. Combustion pressure sensor (Optrand)
2. Intake manifold pressure sensor (Kistler)
3. Exhaust pressure sensor (Kistler)

I would be interested to have more sensors if possible, 4 would be good, but 8 would be great unless it multiplied the cost (this is a personal hobby project).

I will want to display the collected data in a graph.
If there is an application that does what I want easily, I might use it.
I expect that I will prefer to collect the data from a text file and graph it with an application that I will write.

I wonder if there is a way to graph the data in real time (maybe in coarser frequency).

Can you tell me if there is a PicoScope that can do this, if so what model?

I am looking at the 3000 series scopes but do not have a good enough understanding of the technical specs to know if it is capable of supporting this project.

Thank you for your attention.

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Re: Data-Logging Gas Waves in an Engine at 8,000 RPM

Postby Martyn » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:14 am

You may wish to post this question on our dedicated automotive forum
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Re: Data-Logging Gas Waves in an Engine at 8,000 RPM

Postby schmidtmotorworks » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:58 pm

Martyn wrote:You may wish to post this question on our dedicated automotive forum


Will do, thanks.

I was a bit doubtful that the conventional use of the Picoscope in automotive applications goes to such high speed.

Best Regards

Jon
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Re: Data-Logging Gas Waves in an Engine at 8,000 RPM

Postby Martyn » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:34 am

That is low speed in the world of scopes.

If you are looking at more than 4 channels, you may wish to consider the PicoScope 4824 , provided you are not scoping ignition signals.

If you email in to support@picotech.com with more details on the sensors, and your application, the team will be able to advise in detail.
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Re: Data-Logging Gas Waves in an Engine at 8,000 RPM

Postby schmidtmotorworks » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:21 pm

Does anyone know how I can figure out if the Pico 4824 would be compatible with the following sensors and amplifiers?

I don't know what specs to look for to determine compatibility.

#1
KISTLER 4049A10S 0-10BAR WATER COOLED ABSOLUTE PRESSURE SENSOR
with a
KISTLER PR-Amplifier Type 4622A

#2
KISTLER 4045A10 SENSOR
with a
KISTLER 4618A0 DYNAMIC PIEZORESISTIVE AMPLIFIER

#3
OPTRAND C52394 IN CYLINDER COMBUSTION PRESSURE SENSOR
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Re: Data-Logging Gas Waves in an Engine at 8,000 RPM

Postby Gerry » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:49 pm

Hi schmidtmotorworks,

The way to figure out what you ask is to compare the output specifications of the sensor or amplifier (i.e. the one that will be connected directly to the PicoScope), against the input requirements and specifications of the PicoScope to see if they are compatible. So, here are the results of the relevant comaprisons:

The KISTLER PR-Amplifier Type 4622A AMPLIFIER has a maximum full-scale output of 10V, which has a corresponding input range on the PicoScope 4824. The maximum frequency response is 40kHz, which is well within the 20MHz maximum Bandwidth of a Picoscope 4824 input channel.

The KISTLER 4618A0 DYNAMIC PIEZORESISTIVE AMPLIFIER has a maximum full-scale output of 1V on it's minimum output range, and a maximum full-scale output of 10V on it's maximum output range, both of which have corresponding input ranges on the PicoScope 4824, and its frequency response is the same as the 4662A.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find a data sheet for the OPTRAND C52394 IN CYLINDER COMBUSTION PRESSURE SENSOR. However as long as the combustion pressure doesn't have a rise time that is quicker than 17.5nS (or a bandwidth greater than 20MHz) you will be able to measure it with a PicoScope 4824. If it has a large enough output voltage (20mV or greater) you will be able to connect it directly to the PicoScope (otherwise it will need amplification).

You will need to provide the excitation voltage required to drive the amplifiers & sensors.

Regards,

Gerry
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